You say: "If moving to Israel would solve the problem, I would move to Israel." Elsewhere you said: "If my moving to Israel would bring the Messiah, then I would." Doesn't this mean that lacking objective proof that the end (or progression?) of the Jewish story in Israel will be better for the Jews than the continuing story in the Diaspora, not only is there no convincing reason to move to Israel, rather, there is all the more reason to remain in the Diaspora and insist on a different narrative, of the Jews' own creation?
Telling myself a story? More like reading the Bible and Jewish history. I think the best Jewish story of the Diaspora is the Iraqi story, that lasted over a thousand years. But it has a bad ending too. Still, I'm willing to hope with you for the triumph of liberal democracy.
OK, now I think I understand where you’re coming from. But I kind of don’t. You don’t want to be pressured to move to Israel. I get that. It’s a tough country. I don’t wanna move there either. I like America. That having been said, your argument doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Because Harzony can’t predict the future and what it would look like with a full ingathering, then his idea of return to Israel is somehow not satisfying. How can he possibly say what it would look like either from a religious or an empirical perspective? We can’t even say what America will look like in 20 years if it keeps following the road of liberalism/progressivism.
Presumably, what he’s looking forward to is a strong independent Israel, and maybe the coming of the Messiah. What exactly that looks like is kind of irrelevant.
As for Christian nationalism, I don’t think it’s a realistic movement. I support a recentering of religious life in America under a pluralistic banner that perhaps privileges in some non-legalistic ways aJudeo-Christian approach.
And if you’re wondering where this movement is coming from, you just need to look at the excesses of progressivism which has left so many of us demoralized about liberalism. If liberalism would clean up its own mess, there might not be this reaction.
Thanks for your note, Thomas. A couple of thoughts…
Hazony thinks the Ingathering thus far is a good thing. It’s a partial fulfillment of the Promise. But why does he think all of us need to go back? And why intentionally make the Diaspora hostile to Jews by championing a vision for America that privileges Christians? … Hazony is like a guy who is throwing a party, but the party continues to suffer serious problems — the neighbors are violent and attack every so often, the town council regularly condemns the party, many people at the party think about leaving for a different party — yet Hazony as host tells everyone to be patient; the party, he says, will get a lot better when everyone on the guest list finally arrives. 🙄 Why not assume the remaining guests are never coming and just enjoy your amazing party? (I bet Yoram would rather talk about parties than actually attend one.)
You say Hazony can’t predict the future. Yet he has very clear ideas about what the American future should be. Christian privilege, Bible in the public square, traditional marriage, family values, etc. I simply wonder what he imagines will happen when all the exiles come home. What then?
Here’s my biggest beef with Hazony: His whole virtues of nationalism shtick is based on the idea that each nation is different and should have its own homeland where the people can express their unique culture and folkways. Well, here’s what the nation of Israel looks like in all its glory: religious and secular Jews, conservative and liberal Jews, particular and universal Jews, gay and straight Jews, peacenik and hawkish Jews, single and married Jews, Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Orthodox, ultra-Orthodox, Humanist Jews, blue-collar and white-collar Jews, on and on it goes. Also, and thus is critical: Israeli and Diaspora Jews. Why does Hazony want to wedge all Jews into one sliver of land in the eastern Mediterranean when the nation of Israel has *always* had a diaspora? That’s one of our nation’s greatest virtues and strengths, but Hazony wants to destroy it. … Hazony writes: “An order of independent nations would permit diverse forms of self-government, religion, and culture in a ‘world of experiments’ that would benefit all mankind.” The end of the diaspora would be an end to perhaps the longest running “experiment” in Jewish history. The diaspora had been an amazingly successful experiment, despite the many troubles we’ve experienced along the way. How do I know the experiment has been successful? Because we’re still here. And because we still exist, so too does the G*d of Israel, Rock and Redeemer of a people and of the entire world.
All that said, I’m still a Zionist. But G*d’s Promise to us was fulfilled when the flag went up in 1948. If I may paraphrase the Big Guy:
“I promised Abraham and his descendants that one day they would live in a land that I will show you. Well, here it is — a Promised Land teeming with non-Jews, just like the first two times you were here. Canaanites, Greeks, Romans …. it’s always somebody! You see, kids, Israel is not the answer to your problems, it’s a question for you and for everyone else — the Jewish question(s): How shall we live? What is a good & moral life? What’s the purpose of human history? Does G*d exist? And this question too — the Zionist one that drives people nuts: If you have a problem with the existence of the nation-state of Israel, then why don’t you have a problem with your own?
Hazony has done a great job describing how liberalism is built on quicksand. His critique is spot on. But his proposed remedy is riddled with problems and contradictions. As I wrote elsewhere, Hazony has said the Diaspora isn’t safe for Jews, and to prove the point he’s igniting a fire that will force Jews to make Aliyah. Does that make him a prophet? Or just an over-educated punk?
I’m really not sure how you can say the diaspora has been “an amazingly successful experiment.” It wasn’t so successful for my three grandparents and the other 6 million Jews, who were killed in the holocaust. It wasn’t so successful for Jews, who suffered from pogroms for 1000 years in Europe and the Middle east. Even in America, there were neighborhoods where Jews were not allowed to live within recent memory, and we can continue to be the most targeted minority for hate crimes.
I know that from my parents perspective, the Diaspora was so successful that they raised my brothers and me Christian in the hopes of sparing us from future successes.
In the end, I think you take Hazony too seriously and Diaspora not seriously enough. The ingathering is a pipe dream as is Christian nationalism. Neither is going to happen this side of the Messiah.
I hope you don't think I was minimizing the horror of the Shoah or of all the other train wrecks in Jewish history. They're all tragic and painful. But the Promise wasn't that all of us would make it to the Promised Land. Only some of us get there. A remnant. What still amazes me is Jewish resilience; we get knocked down but we always get up again. Eyes on the prize. It's borderline miraculous. Jewish resurrection, over and over again.
You say the ingathering is a "pipe dream." Really?? The ingathering is already 50 percent complete. It's happening right now. As for Christian nationalism -- from Constantine onward, Christian nationalism has many precedents, especially in Europe. What exactly do you think has changed that makes Christian nationalism in the United States a pipe dream?
I believe all utopian ideals are pipe dreams. And, in the case of the ingathering, I see the glass as half empty, not full. Short of some spectacular success in the ongoing war with Iran and its proxies, I don't see American Jews going anywhere, and we are most of the remaining 50 percent. As for the European precedents of Christian nationalism, that is long gone along with real monarchy and other pre-Enlightenment political systems. In a democratic system, it will never come to pass because there simply aren't enough real Christians and among those who exist, many wouldn't support such a change to the founding principles, which among many conservatives are nearly as sacred as Torah.
I think most people want just what we had not too long ago, a respect and place for religion and some sort of cultural commonality. That might be a pipe dream too. But far more likely than Christian nationalism or classical liberalism in my view is either Mad Max anarchy, woke totalitarianism, or a caliphate.
Ah, ok. I read you wrong. Sorry about that. … Do I see something almost miraculous about the Ingathering thus far. Yes, I do. Do millions of people see this Ingathering and believe that Biblical prophecy is coming true, Yes, they do. My question is: Now what? Seems like whatever message would be sent by the re-establishment of the state & the Ingathering has already been delivered. Narratively speaking, little else is accomplished by bringing all Jews to Zion. So you can stop waiting for the rest of us to arrive. If you think the state will be a light unto the nations by setting an example, I say: Get busy! I’m rooting for you. But if you believe that G*d’s hand in history is revealed by what’s already happened, then we don’t need more action on the ground; we need a better understanding of what’s already transpired. And that’s work that diaspora Jews can help do without putting more pressure on the Jewish state by making aliyah.
Put another way: If the establishment of the state of Israel and the Ingathering of some of the exiles affirms your belief in G*d (as a Jew, Christian, or Moslem), then you’ve already arrived. The Point has already been made for those who are able to hear and see it. No need to bring another 7 million Jews into the land.
All Jews to Israel is not Hazony's idea. You know that.
I'm thinking that it cannot be easy to be a Jew in the Diaspora nowadays. You have no choice but to believe that antisemitism will not get worse. Alan, what do you see turning the tide? It's not looking good from where I sit.
Hazony: “I’m a Zionist. I’ve been telling Jews they should live in Israel at least since college. I gave a public lecture at Princeton, my senior year, explaining my views. But I’ve noticed that most the Diaspora Jews don’t agree with me on this.” How can you read that and then say that “all Jews to Israel is not Hazony’s idea.”
You’re right that it is unsettling to be a Jew in the diaspora right now. That’s what my Substack is all about. But it cannot be easy to be a Jew in Israel nowadays. It isn’t easy anywhere.
What will turn the tide? A rediscovery of the importance of liberal democracy. To me, liberal democracy is secular Talmudism: a commitment to dialogue and disagreement and then more dialogue. My fear, of course is the secular piece undermines the dialogue part. That there is something inherently unstable about the liberal Democratic order. If I thought moving to Israel would solve the problem, I would. But to be honest, I don’t understand what story you’re telling yourself about what should happen next. All details welcome.
Back to this Alan :)
You say: "If moving to Israel would solve the problem, I would move to Israel." Elsewhere you said: "If my moving to Israel would bring the Messiah, then I would." Doesn't this mean that lacking objective proof that the end (or progression?) of the Jewish story in Israel will be better for the Jews than the continuing story in the Diaspora, not only is there no convincing reason to move to Israel, rather, there is all the more reason to remain in the Diaspora and insist on a different narrative, of the Jews' own creation?
I must have been anticipating your question, Ehud. Because I just posted this: https://substack.com/@alanmairson/note/c-63796616
You are hard to keep up with! Looking forward to reading.
Telling myself a story? More like reading the Bible and Jewish history. I think the best Jewish story of the Diaspora is the Iraqi story, that lasted over a thousand years. But it has a bad ending too. Still, I'm willing to hope with you for the triumph of liberal democracy.
OK, now I think I understand where you’re coming from. But I kind of don’t. You don’t want to be pressured to move to Israel. I get that. It’s a tough country. I don’t wanna move there either. I like America. That having been said, your argument doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Because Harzony can’t predict the future and what it would look like with a full ingathering, then his idea of return to Israel is somehow not satisfying. How can he possibly say what it would look like either from a religious or an empirical perspective? We can’t even say what America will look like in 20 years if it keeps following the road of liberalism/progressivism.
Presumably, what he’s looking forward to is a strong independent Israel, and maybe the coming of the Messiah. What exactly that looks like is kind of irrelevant.
As for Christian nationalism, I don’t think it’s a realistic movement. I support a recentering of religious life in America under a pluralistic banner that perhaps privileges in some non-legalistic ways aJudeo-Christian approach.
And if you’re wondering where this movement is coming from, you just need to look at the excesses of progressivism which has left so many of us demoralized about liberalism. If liberalism would clean up its own mess, there might not be this reaction.
Thanks for your note, Thomas. A couple of thoughts…
Hazony thinks the Ingathering thus far is a good thing. It’s a partial fulfillment of the Promise. But why does he think all of us need to go back? And why intentionally make the Diaspora hostile to Jews by championing a vision for America that privileges Christians? … Hazony is like a guy who is throwing a party, but the party continues to suffer serious problems — the neighbors are violent and attack every so often, the town council regularly condemns the party, many people at the party think about leaving for a different party — yet Hazony as host tells everyone to be patient; the party, he says, will get a lot better when everyone on the guest list finally arrives. 🙄 Why not assume the remaining guests are never coming and just enjoy your amazing party? (I bet Yoram would rather talk about parties than actually attend one.)
You say Hazony can’t predict the future. Yet he has very clear ideas about what the American future should be. Christian privilege, Bible in the public square, traditional marriage, family values, etc. I simply wonder what he imagines will happen when all the exiles come home. What then?
Here’s my biggest beef with Hazony: His whole virtues of nationalism shtick is based on the idea that each nation is different and should have its own homeland where the people can express their unique culture and folkways. Well, here’s what the nation of Israel looks like in all its glory: religious and secular Jews, conservative and liberal Jews, particular and universal Jews, gay and straight Jews, peacenik and hawkish Jews, single and married Jews, Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Orthodox, ultra-Orthodox, Humanist Jews, blue-collar and white-collar Jews, on and on it goes. Also, and thus is critical: Israeli and Diaspora Jews. Why does Hazony want to wedge all Jews into one sliver of land in the eastern Mediterranean when the nation of Israel has *always* had a diaspora? That’s one of our nation’s greatest virtues and strengths, but Hazony wants to destroy it. … Hazony writes: “An order of independent nations would permit diverse forms of self-government, religion, and culture in a ‘world of experiments’ that would benefit all mankind.” The end of the diaspora would be an end to perhaps the longest running “experiment” in Jewish history. The diaspora had been an amazingly successful experiment, despite the many troubles we’ve experienced along the way. How do I know the experiment has been successful? Because we’re still here. And because we still exist, so too does the G*d of Israel, Rock and Redeemer of a people and of the entire world.
All that said, I’m still a Zionist. But G*d’s Promise to us was fulfilled when the flag went up in 1948. If I may paraphrase the Big Guy:
“I promised Abraham and his descendants that one day they would live in a land that I will show you. Well, here it is — a Promised Land teeming with non-Jews, just like the first two times you were here. Canaanites, Greeks, Romans …. it’s always somebody! You see, kids, Israel is not the answer to your problems, it’s a question for you and for everyone else — the Jewish question(s): How shall we live? What is a good & moral life? What’s the purpose of human history? Does G*d exist? And this question too — the Zionist one that drives people nuts: If you have a problem with the existence of the nation-state of Israel, then why don’t you have a problem with your own?
Hazony has done a great job describing how liberalism is built on quicksand. His critique is spot on. But his proposed remedy is riddled with problems and contradictions. As I wrote elsewhere, Hazony has said the Diaspora isn’t safe for Jews, and to prove the point he’s igniting a fire that will force Jews to make Aliyah. Does that make him a prophet? Or just an over-educated punk?
All Jews move to Israel; great say the anti-Semites: All fish, one barrel.
Exactly right.
I’m really not sure how you can say the diaspora has been “an amazingly successful experiment.” It wasn’t so successful for my three grandparents and the other 6 million Jews, who were killed in the holocaust. It wasn’t so successful for Jews, who suffered from pogroms for 1000 years in Europe and the Middle east. Even in America, there were neighborhoods where Jews were not allowed to live within recent memory, and we can continue to be the most targeted minority for hate crimes.
I know that from my parents perspective, the Diaspora was so successful that they raised my brothers and me Christian in the hopes of sparing us from future successes.
In the end, I think you take Hazony too seriously and Diaspora not seriously enough. The ingathering is a pipe dream as is Christian nationalism. Neither is going to happen this side of the Messiah.
I hope you don't think I was minimizing the horror of the Shoah or of all the other train wrecks in Jewish history. They're all tragic and painful. But the Promise wasn't that all of us would make it to the Promised Land. Only some of us get there. A remnant. What still amazes me is Jewish resilience; we get knocked down but we always get up again. Eyes on the prize. It's borderline miraculous. Jewish resurrection, over and over again.
You say the ingathering is a "pipe dream." Really?? The ingathering is already 50 percent complete. It's happening right now. As for Christian nationalism -- from Constantine onward, Christian nationalism has many precedents, especially in Europe. What exactly do you think has changed that makes Christian nationalism in the United States a pipe dream?
I believe all utopian ideals are pipe dreams. And, in the case of the ingathering, I see the glass as half empty, not full. Short of some spectacular success in the ongoing war with Iran and its proxies, I don't see American Jews going anywhere, and we are most of the remaining 50 percent. As for the European precedents of Christian nationalism, that is long gone along with real monarchy and other pre-Enlightenment political systems. In a democratic system, it will never come to pass because there simply aren't enough real Christians and among those who exist, many wouldn't support such a change to the founding principles, which among many conservatives are nearly as sacred as Torah.
I think most people want just what we had not too long ago, a respect and place for religion and some sort of cultural commonality. That might be a pipe dream too. But far more likely than Christian nationalism or classical liberalism in my view is either Mad Max anarchy, woke totalitarianism, or a caliphate.
Unless, of course, you know who shows up.
Let's rephrase it. Not All Jews to Israel, rather, the ingathering of the exiles. Precedes Hazony I think.
Ah, ok. I read you wrong. Sorry about that. … Do I see something almost miraculous about the Ingathering thus far. Yes, I do. Do millions of people see this Ingathering and believe that Biblical prophecy is coming true, Yes, they do. My question is: Now what? Seems like whatever message would be sent by the re-establishment of the state & the Ingathering has already been delivered. Narratively speaking, little else is accomplished by bringing all Jews to Zion. So you can stop waiting for the rest of us to arrive. If you think the state will be a light unto the nations by setting an example, I say: Get busy! I’m rooting for you. But if you believe that G*d’s hand in history is revealed by what’s already happened, then we don’t need more action on the ground; we need a better understanding of what’s already transpired. And that’s work that diaspora Jews can help do without putting more pressure on the Jewish state by making aliyah.
Put another way: If the establishment of the state of Israel and the Ingathering of some of the exiles affirms your belief in G*d (as a Jew, Christian, or Moslem), then you’ve already arrived. The Point has already been made for those who are able to hear and see it. No need to bring another 7 million Jews into the land.
All Jews to Israel is not Hazony's idea. You know that.
I'm thinking that it cannot be easy to be a Jew in the Diaspora nowadays. You have no choice but to believe that antisemitism will not get worse. Alan, what do you see turning the tide? It's not looking good from where I sit.
Hazony: “I’m a Zionist. I’ve been telling Jews they should live in Israel at least since college. I gave a public lecture at Princeton, my senior year, explaining my views. But I’ve noticed that most the Diaspora Jews don’t agree with me on this.” How can you read that and then say that “all Jews to Israel is not Hazony’s idea.”
You’re right that it is unsettling to be a Jew in the diaspora right now. That’s what my Substack is all about. But it cannot be easy to be a Jew in Israel nowadays. It isn’t easy anywhere.
What will turn the tide? A rediscovery of the importance of liberal democracy. To me, liberal democracy is secular Talmudism: a commitment to dialogue and disagreement and then more dialogue. My fear, of course is the secular piece undermines the dialogue part. That there is something inherently unstable about the liberal Democratic order. If I thought moving to Israel would solve the problem, I would. But to be honest, I don’t understand what story you’re telling yourself about what should happen next. All details welcome.