I don’t quite follow you here. Isn’t the Christian story about the same as the Jewish one: the Messiah reigns on David’s throne, establishes justice and they all live happily ever after?
Obviously most Jews today are as yet unconvinced of the claims about Jesus of Nazareth, but otherwise aren’t these more or less identical scenarios?
I’d say the difference is that Christian’s “desire for consonance” is satisfied by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Jews have a desire for consonance that has yet to be satisfied. Christians stand near the end of Act III, and applaud; Jews are somewhere in Act II or early in Act III wondering what happens next & how the Story might end. Far from identical scenarios.
Yes, I meant to ‘like’ your comment before commenting on it 🤓 because it does share light on your no doubt well-founded position.
It sounds like we’re agreed on the final act, Act IV I guess it is in your sequence.
But if religious Jews have faithful records of past Divine interactions, and are now awaiting the Messiah to sort out the problems of the world, that to me looks like Act III.
What specifically is lacking in terms of the ‘consonance’ you speak of?
Yes, the People are persecuted, and worse, their frequent involuntary pilgrimages across national borders then gets them accused of being ‘rootless cosmopolitans,’ and worse, this is but one of many seemingly no-win scenarios they find themselves in.
Yet Christians of various sorts have also known persecution, from Islam, from atheistic governments. So if not a straight equivalent there is at least a parallel to point to. The Christians’ story is not any sort of triumphal victory, at least not in this life.
Now, an altogether secular Jew, who doesn’t believe in the Name, the Book, who doesn’t believe that all things will be resolved at or near the end of time, will indeed lack a certain ‘consonance’, a confidence that tomorrow might be any better than today.
Lacking not only a visit from Messiah today, but even a belief in Messiah, he or she has lost one of the great characteristics of the Tribe, a belief in linear history, that history is not just one damn thing after another, but is going somewhere, it has a goal, and our lives have meaning.
But this to me just seems an inherent drawback of atheism, thus is not in any way unique to the Jewish experience. Gentile atheists have the same predicament, and turn to the same secular utopian ‘solutions’ like socialism or world government.
My two cents.
If I’m missing anything important please do holler back, I value your thoughts and contributions.
I agree with much of what you’ve written, Dan. The difference is that Christians believe everything was said and done 2,000 years ago, and that all the rest is commentary. Jews believe — correction: I believe — the Story is still underway & History is still an open Book. (I feel a need to weave Ishmael back into the family and the Story; I think Christians believe all the weaving has already been done.)
Like Protestants and Eastern Orthodox, the Catholics anticipate no new Books of the Bible being written. In that sense the Deposit of Faith (as they understand it, the propositional content of what the faithful are required to believe) has already been laid down. Yet the Roman Church has a strong component of continuing development, with continuing surprises. Even seemingly settled matters are interpreted in new ways. I’m not hawking this capacity for change as a feature, it may well be a bug, as other Christians maintain. My point is merely that the Story might be more ‘still underway’ there than in other traditions.
But these others could still point to countless altogether new human interactions with the Faith, thus for them the Story also continues in individuals, communities and nations. This or that heretofore unreached people group now has heard the Gospel, the Bible is being translated by missionaries, and so on.
If and as you have time, I’d love to hear more about the ‘consonance’ you spoke of. Plenty of Jewish angst out there, it was sort of quaint in Woody Allen movies, not so much with new pogroms arising even now in liberal democracies! 🤦♂️
Oh and DO catch that Arguing the World documentary, even if you have to buy a used DVD off Amazon or someplace. Really special
S i r ~
I don’t quite follow you here. Isn’t the Christian story about the same as the Jewish one: the Messiah reigns on David’s throne, establishes justice and they all live happily ever after?
Obviously most Jews today are as yet unconvinced of the claims about Jesus of Nazareth, but otherwise aren’t these more or less identical scenarios?
I’d say the difference is that Christian’s “desire for consonance” is satisfied by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Jews have a desire for consonance that has yet to be satisfied. Christians stand near the end of Act III, and applaud; Jews are somewhere in Act II or early in Act III wondering what happens next & how the Story might end. Far from identical scenarios.
Yes, I meant to ‘like’ your comment before commenting on it 🤓 because it does share light on your no doubt well-founded position.
It sounds like we’re agreed on the final act, Act IV I guess it is in your sequence.
But if religious Jews have faithful records of past Divine interactions, and are now awaiting the Messiah to sort out the problems of the world, that to me looks like Act III.
What specifically is lacking in terms of the ‘consonance’ you speak of?
Yes, the People are persecuted, and worse, their frequent involuntary pilgrimages across national borders then gets them accused of being ‘rootless cosmopolitans,’ and worse, this is but one of many seemingly no-win scenarios they find themselves in.
Yet Christians of various sorts have also known persecution, from Islam, from atheistic governments. So if not a straight equivalent there is at least a parallel to point to. The Christians’ story is not any sort of triumphal victory, at least not in this life.
Now, an altogether secular Jew, who doesn’t believe in the Name, the Book, who doesn’t believe that all things will be resolved at or near the end of time, will indeed lack a certain ‘consonance’, a confidence that tomorrow might be any better than today.
Lacking not only a visit from Messiah today, but even a belief in Messiah, he or she has lost one of the great characteristics of the Tribe, a belief in linear history, that history is not just one damn thing after another, but is going somewhere, it has a goal, and our lives have meaning.
But this to me just seems an inherent drawback of atheism, thus is not in any way unique to the Jewish experience. Gentile atheists have the same predicament, and turn to the same secular utopian ‘solutions’ like socialism or world government.
My two cents.
If I’m missing anything important please do holler back, I value your thoughts and contributions.
And a happy Fourth to ye!
I agree with much of what you’ve written, Dan. The difference is that Christians believe everything was said and done 2,000 years ago, and that all the rest is commentary. Jews believe — correction: I believe — the Story is still underway & History is still an open Book. (I feel a need to weave Ishmael back into the family and the Story; I think Christians believe all the weaving has already been done.)
Interesting! 🤓
Like Protestants and Eastern Orthodox, the Catholics anticipate no new Books of the Bible being written. In that sense the Deposit of Faith (as they understand it, the propositional content of what the faithful are required to believe) has already been laid down. Yet the Roman Church has a strong component of continuing development, with continuing surprises. Even seemingly settled matters are interpreted in new ways. I’m not hawking this capacity for change as a feature, it may well be a bug, as other Christians maintain. My point is merely that the Story might be more ‘still underway’ there than in other traditions.
But these others could still point to countless altogether new human interactions with the Faith, thus for them the Story also continues in individuals, communities and nations. This or that heretofore unreached people group now has heard the Gospel, the Bible is being translated by missionaries, and so on.
If and as you have time, I’d love to hear more about the ‘consonance’ you spoke of. Plenty of Jewish angst out there, it was sort of quaint in Woody Allen movies, not so much with new pogroms arising even now in liberal democracies! 🤦♂️